I watched a video today on YouTube that was called Jesus Camp ... I found it disturbing that many in the charismatic church actually think this is great and the fact that I once bought into it hook line and sinker ...
Basically I think I would rather send my kids to Camp Quest ... yeah you can google Camp Quest ... I really found myself getting angry the longer the Jesus Camp video played ... you can google that one too ...
I hate pressure from sales people and especially religious sales people preying on young kids ... the innocent kids just wanted to do what was right and yet I know from experience that all it produces is emotionally damaged kids that have so much to work through as they grow up normally, let alone heaping on the religious baggage that I saw being dumped on them in that Jesus Camp video ...
I have a fine 2 year old grandson that hopefully will never have to wade through the sewer of guilt and shame that the church is handing out like free candy to kids these days ...
In addition to telling kids to stay away from strangers, I am in favor of telling kids to stay away from Strange Church people who masquerade as concerned and helpful adults offering the treat that takes you to heaven but in reality it is the garbage that will make your life a living guilt-ridden hell that strips you of who you really are as a human being and turns you into a zombie that can only parrot the inappropriate responses that were programed into you the moment you accepted the fake candy that you were offered when your conscience was innocent and suggestible ...
grrrrrrrrrrrrrr ... I think I have just blown a gasket and need to be HEALED by a shot or 2 of Jack, Jim or Johnny now and take an hour to enjoy a nice fat cigar ...
ps ... yes that is me in that picture
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12 comments:
Jim,
Christianity KNOWS it needs to get the children while they are young! I know I had classes in my ministerial training upon "childhood evangelism."
It is such a mis-match because the majority of kids don't stand much of a chance because most will believe whatever a "teacher" will instruct them upon. Good thing that your grandson will be hearing from grandpa! But maybe I am being presumptuous here?
Are your grandson's parents religious still? If so, how would you handle the situation? Might be a good subject for a future post?
luckily they are not church people ... they both grew weary of it all too ... I am a very happy ex-pastor in that my wife and kids changed as I did ... we all processed this change together
Jim and Brian,
Do you really think that this represents Christianity, the mainsteam of the church? This is a cult. It's frightening.
I wouldn't send my kids or grandkids into this situation, either, and I'm a committed Christian believer.
Jim, there is a huge difference in not wanting our children or grandkids to grow up in toxic religious, and cultic (brainwashing) situations, and not caring at all about whether they are ever going to have a relationship with a loving God, to know Christ, and then to experience a caring, supportive spiritual community.
Forgive me if I've overstepped my bounds, but I had to speak up, and share my concern with you.
Sincerely,
Grace (Becky)
no problem Becky ... hope your experience in church remains caring and supportive ... I did not experience that and our mileage differs greatly in that respect
Becky,
I didn't see the video. While I am not out looking for bad Christian behavior, I am not going to turn my head and ignore things that need to be addressed! I probably would have written about it if I had stumbled upon this item.
Becky, has any Christian group went out of their way to expose and call these to accountability? I am glad to know that a former minister (Jim) would point this out....now where are the Christian defenders of truth?
Seems like Jim is doing something to make the world a better place to live in! This is in keeping with the attitude of the blog!
Thanks Jim and I would concour with you that I hope Becky's church remains caring and supportive as well!
Thank you, Jim. :)
Brian, as far as I know there was quite a bit of outcry relating to this "Jesus Camp," both by Christians, and by secular folks as well. According to "Christianiy Today" in an article written awhile back the camp had actually been shut down.
Certainly Jim is right to express his concern, and anger. I have no problem with this at all.
My concern would be that folks don't look at things like this, and equate something like "Jesus Camp," with the mainstream of the Christian church.
I think the whole center of Christian faith is the unconditional love of God, and acceptance we have in Christ, and how that flows out of our lives to each other, and to the world around.
Granted, the institutional church is also composed of broken, fallible people. We don't express the love of God perfectly, and let's face it, "the tares are mixed with the wheat," so to speak.
But, as far as I'm concerned any religious group that is bringing people into nothing but bondage, and judgment has already left the gospel.
I would be concerned that in rightly speaking out against these abuses, that we don't also "ditch the baby with the bathwater," trash the Christian faith, and walk away from trust in God.
If my church was not in some real measure caring, and supportive, then I would want to find one that is. Why should we allow the sin, and hypocrisy of others to prevent us from a relationship with God in Christ?
Brian, this is off topic, but I see that you are living in Eastern Europe. What is the culture like there for you, and your family? Are you working with our embassy?
Blessings, and God's peace.
Becky.
Becky,
We both know that the "unconditional love" sounds nice, but it contradicts Christ's words see Luke 14:26.
You yourself just stated that "Jesus Camp" wasn't unconditionally accepted by Christians. Religion is very divisive and often contrary to peace. What you state is the "utopian" version of Christianity...utopian Christianity is so very rare because as you say people just mess things up.
I have written many things relating to these things "Queen of Sciences" or "Faith Robs Man" so I need not say more.
Religion does have some value, no denying this from me! If someone's faith works for them...I am happy for them! I plan to start acknowledging some of the good things that Christian's do....perhaps in the next 2-3 weeks.
Hi, Brian,
Totally agree that we all fall short in expressing unconditional love. I think that while fearfully, and wonderfully made in the image of God, we're all broken, and fallen at the sametime.
And, institutional religion can often reflect that brokenness. To my mind, we need God's help to express the love of Christ, and will never do so perfectly in this life, anyway.
I suppose in a sense living the Christian life, so to speak, means relaxing into our unity with Christ. Our lives are hidden with Christ in God. Speaking metaphorically of course.
It can be very difficult to know how to approach people caught up into toxic religious abuse, and these various cults. How do we love, and accept the person without condoning or enabling the abuse?
It is of a great concern to me, Brian, partly because it's been my heartbreaking experience that when people come out of these abusive situations, they often want
nothing to do with anything spiritual, and abandon trust in God completely. So, it does seem to me that as a church we are not doing the best job in reaching out.
I'll look forward to reading your post in a few weeks, and I really appreciate talking with you, Brian.
Becky,
I will say this as kindly as I know to say this.
Are you God?
Did he speak to you giving you a personal revelation that he was going in a new direction than the Bible indicates?
You are in trouble with God according to Rev 22:19 because you TOOK AWAY from "God's" Bible! The punishment is plagues and your name will now be taken out of the book of life!
Whenever ANYONE decides to go contrary to the written revelation of scripture....in essense you are making up your own "new" religion and that is why you are in trouble!
Becky, even by Christian definitions a cult is a group that operates under something rather than the Bible....this is what you have just done here. You are proclaiming for yourself and your church that Luke 14:26 is NOT what Christ taught! Your not fooling me nor your "God."
Furthermore, I consider you to be very arrogant...although you are very civil and nice to us here while defending your belief system. When anyone that claims they are a Christian and says..."well I will ignore what the Bible says and do my own thing"...that is arrogance because you are in essense doing what the serpent in the garden asked..."yea hath God said?" You are teaching your own new belief system....do you think you are smarter or better than those that received Biblical inspiration?
You distance yourself from the Bible...yet how would anyone know anything of "Christ" if there wasn't a book revealing what "God" was like? In essense you are biting the hand that fed you(the Bible.)
I know the Bible and that stuff doesn't fly here! Plus, I have better things to do with my time than to try to win over people that avoid reason like you have.
Your welcome to visit and read the blog/website but liberal Christians can't have it both ways! Instead of defending/trashing your Bible go out and work for the common good!
I am not mad or upset with you at all here! But this business of claiming Christian beliefs unattached to the Bible is Beckyology and has nothing to do with the Bible. I wish you well!
Brian,
I'm not able to understand your post. I'm not really especially liberal, but am orthodox in the faith, just a normal, bog-standard follower of Jesus Christ. I'm basically just sharing the mainstream faith of the Christian church.
How can Rev. 22:19 refer to the entire Bible, though, because at the time this book was written the entire canon was not yet even established. No one actually had the Bible.
Are you a fundamentalist, Brian, and feel very strongly. It seems to me that there must be a lot of metaphor, and symbolism used in the book of Revelation. What do you think?
I think sometimes Jesus uses hyperbole when He teaches to make a salient point. He is not telling people to literally hate their families. This would not square with what we know of the whole life, and ministry of Christ.
But, there is a sense, I think that our passion, and committment for Jesus is so strong, that even our affection for our families can pale in comparision.
Brian, I take Scripture very seriously, but that doesn't mean to my mind, that Scripture should always be interpreted literally, and consideration of the cultural context is important too.
My denomination teaches the concept of a three-legged stool. Our faith is informed by the witness of Scripture, the tradition of the whole church, and human reason. And, of course, everything is interpreted by our knowledge of the love of God in Jesus Christ.
This Scripture from Rom. 8 speaks so much to me:
Who is He that condemns? Christ Jesus who died, and was raised to life....Who shall seperate us from the love of Christ....
For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Brian, I'm going away visiting family for the weekend. I'll probably be back on Sun. night. If you don't want me to hang out, and share here, I'll understand, and won't be offended.
But, I don't look at all of this as a debate where people have to necessarily win or lose. Sometimes it's just good to talk, and share back and forth, to try to understand where other people are at.
We can agree to disagree.
Pax.
Diversity and controversy abounds! To camp or not to camp - that is the question!
My first step on the sawdust trail began at a Christian camp! The rest is history - as my book, EVANGELICALISM - another halluconogenic, portrays.
However, the RICHARD DAWKINS organisation is now running camps that invite children to explore atheism!
Our busses carry posters inviting people to THINK about their religious beliefs.
Who says that we unbelievers never learn anything positive from those who believe!?
Paul Benedict
Paul,
It strikes me that everyone needs to think, and reflect deeply, and critically explore their beliefs.
There are many people out here who are intelligent, thinking people of faith.
And, I'm sure there are folks who are atheists or agnostic who can be just as dogmatic, narrow, and close-minded within their own paradigm as any religious fundamentalist.
I think very much depends on the person, how they've come to their convictions.
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